Mark Lewisohn Interview Recs

Supplemental listening for Fine Tuning

Audio for most of these interviews can be found on Mark Lewisohn, a Beatles Historian, a beautifully maintained fan-made YouTube channel that has archived almost all of the interviews on this list. 

Interviews are linked directly to Apple podcasts, when possible. (YouTube links also included when applicable.)

Interview with Jean Louis-Polard, 2014
Topics of note: Neutrality and lack of bias

Fabcast podcast, 2017
013 MARK LEWISOHN | (YouTube)
Topics of note: The 80s and Paul McCartney’s solo career

Humans in Love podcast, 2018
#1 (Part One) Beatles Authority Mark Lewisohn 
Topics: Paul’s reaction to John’s murder

Fab4Cast podcast, 2019 
Talking to Mark Lewisohn: #1 Writing The Beatles’ History and #2 Spring 1969  | (YouTube links: #1#2)
Topics: Heroin; Allen Klein; the Liberty Bell; John and Yoko’s wedding; Paul and Linda’s wedding

Nothing Is Real podcast, 2019
The Mark Lewisohn Interview #14 Part One and #15 Part Two 
Topics of note: Tensions with Apple

Interview with Giljs Groenteman2019
Topics: Unbridled enthusiasm for John

I Am the EggPod podcast, 2019
The Star-Club tapes  | (YouTube)
Topics: John’s leadership; intention to make all his research accessible after the books are published

From Me To You podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn In Conversation w/ Richard Courtney | (YouTube link)
Topics: Philip Norman; today’s “anti-John stuff” 

Let It Roll podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn in Conversation w/Nate Wilcox | (YouTube)
Topics: The “no greater buddy” incident; Lewisohn defending Paul

Let It Be Beatles podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn – The Complete 2020 Let It Be Beatles Interview Podcast | (YouTube)
Topics: The benzedrine incident; John’s threesome with Royston Ellis; the 444 meeting and Geoff Emerick.

Fans on the Run podcast, 2022
Ep 73. Mark Lewisohn 
Topics: Working for Paul; tensions with Apple

Mocking Paul

Tune In’s take on Paul’s “Uncool” Musical Tastes

NOTE: The purpose of this analysis is not to exaggerate the severity of John’s onstage behavior which could have (at least occasionally) been conducted in good fun and camaraderie. The object is to determine whether or not Tune In is capable of presenting John’s disruptive and/or undermining behavior objectively in a way that allows the reader to judge the appropriateness of such behavior.

–//–

Multiple times throughout the book, Lewisohn writes with seeming approval about John undercutting Paul’s “soft” songs or musical tastes.

Here are five examples of this happening live, onstage:

On page 614, Lewisohn tells us how “Paul would flutter his eyelashes when he sang certain songs,” and calls Somewhere Over the Rainbow” one of [Paul’s] flutter numbers, guaranteed to go down a storm with the girls.”

Tune In describes John teasing Paul onstage: “John pointed to Paul, burst into raucous laughter and shouted, ‘God, he’s doing Judy Garland!’ Paul had to keep singing in the knowledge that John was pulling crips and Quasis behind his back or making strange sounds on his guitar to interrupt him.”

Of this, Lewisohn writes, “There were always several simultaneous reasons why an audience couldn’t take their eyes off the Beatles.”

About “Besame Mucho,” we get a quote from Lindy Ness: “When Paul sang ‘Besame Mucho,’ John used to stand behind him and make cripple faces. He had to: Paul was asking for it.” (p761).

During “A Taste of Honey,” John interrupts Paul’s performance by yelling at the audience. Lewisohn calls this behavior an example of “the Nerk Twins’ chemistry” (p1178).

When Paul sings “Till There Was You,” “[John] speaks most of the lines in a persistent piss-taking echo: ‘No, I never heard them at all’ (‘No, he never heard them’)” and Lewisohn writes, “[Paul’s] not even necessarily cross about it—he knows it’ll happen because this is John, and John is his fairground hero.” He also writes, “It’s part of the double-act, one among so many reasons they’re special together” (p1178).

Also about “Till There Was You”: “John really had a go at Paul for singing this—but didn’t try to stop him doing it, recognizing there was scope for all kinds of music in this group, to please all kinds of audiences” (p615).

Does it sound like John is preoccupied with projecting a “cool” image? We think so. Perhaps his undermining behavior garnered the praise and approval of a few (like Lindy Ness), but it could hardly be described as supportive of his partner (or reflective of good “leadership”).

And yet, Tune In always assures us that John is being awesome. Sometimes even a “hero.”

Instead of dispassionately framing John’s behavior as immature or insecure upstaging, Lewisohn calls John’s attention-seeking antics a part of John and Paul’s “chemistry,” which is “special and a “[reason] why an audience couldn’t take their eyes off the Beatles.”

And, of course, we hear once again that John is Paul’s “fairground hero.”

Somehow, by mocking Paul doing his “flutter numbers” John is “recognizing there’s scope for all kinds of music.”

Note that, according to Tune In, Paul himself isn’t recognizing scope by choosing and singing the songs (even in the face of mockery); John is recognizing scope by allowing him to do it (while simultaneously making fun of him for it).

Our final example is one where John doesn’t even allow Paul to finish his performance, and Tune In uses this to pay John the biggest compliment yet.

Regarding the Beatles’ live performance of Elvis’s hit single “Are You Lonesome Tonight”, only days after its release:

“Paul set down his guitar, clasped the microphone and did his Elvis act, the great solo star crooning his new slow one. It was already going to pot when he went into the long spoken-word middle section about ‘all the world’s a stage,’ which he’d crammed into his brain inside a few hours … and then John just stopped the group dead.

Refusing to be involved in anything so corny, John completely took the piss out of Paul, ripping his close mate and bandmate to shreds in front of everyone. ‘They sent me up rotten,’ Paul says, ‘especially John. They all but laughed me off the stage.’”

So from this description and Paul’s quote, we can surmise that the Beatles had rehearsed and prepared the number, “spoken-word middle section” and all. Why then, did John not object to the corny, spoken-word interlude during rehearsal? Assuming John’s mid-performance “piss-take” was not a comedy routine pre-planned by all the Beatles, this anecdote suggests that John knowingly set Paul up for public ridicule and relished the opportunity to pull the rug out from under him onstage.

To be clear, this would be a perfectly fine choice if Paul was in on the joke and consented to the bit. But deliberately setting Paul up to fail is unambiguously un-cool.

Nevertheless, here’s how Tune In justifies John’s behavior:

“This was the way John dealt with things, and he also knew the Beatles must have a solid front line, not back a soloist. As he said, ‘Every group had a lead singer in a pink jacket singing Cliff Richard-type songs. We were the only group that didn’t … and that was how we broke through, by being different” (586).

There’s no reason to connect John’s quote about “being different” to this anecdote (the footnote indicates his quote is taken from a December 1969 interview called “Pop Goes the Bulldog”) except to spin John’s behavior in the noblest way possible.

Paul wasn’t trying to be “a lead singer in a pink jacket”—he was merely taking the lead vocal just as John and George did in their turn. Did John also stop the band dead in the middle of his own solo spots, in order to ensure they kept a “solid front line” that would allow them to “[break] through by being different? Of course not. John is simply covering his embarrassment here, insecure about perceived softness, and seeking negative attention.

(For readers who may think we’re overblowing this topic, imagine for a moment if Paul was doing this to George Harrison onstage. Would Paul’s behavior be praised?)

It’s outrageous for Lewisohn to spin John’s every behavior into something awesome (“audiences couldn’t take their eyes off”; “fairground hero”), visionary (“we broke through by being different”), egalitarian (“solid front line”) broad-minded (“recognizing there was scope for all kinds of music”), and indicative of a GOOD PARTNER, actually (“part of the double-act”“Nerk Twins’ chemistry”“special together”).

Meanwhile, Paul is “asking for it” by doing “flutter numbers” “guaranteed to go down a storm with the girls,” “making his eyes big,” being “so corny,” and trying to be “the great solo star,” like a Cliff Richard knockoff “in a pink jacket.”

Does this portrayal look even-handed?

—//—

FULL EXCERPTS:

“[‘Are You Lonesome Tonight’] came out in Britain on Friday, January 13, and they did it the next night at Aintree Institute. Paul set down his guitar, clasped the microphone and did his Elvis act, the great solo star crooning his new slow one. It was already going to pot when he went into the long spoken-word middle section about ‘all the world’s a stage,’ which he’d crammed into his brain inside a few hours … and then John just stopped the group dead.

Refusing to be involved in anything so corny, he completely took the piss out of Paul, ripping his close mate and bandmate to shreds in front of everyone. ‘They sent me up rotten,’ Paul says, ‘especially John. They all but laughed me off the stage.’ This was the way John dealt with things, and he also knew the Beatles must have a solid front line, not back a soloist. As he said, ‘Every group had a lead singer in a pink jacket singing Cliff Richard-type songs. We were the only group that didn’t … and that was how we broke through, by being different’” (586).

—//—

“We always requested Paul to sing ‘Long Tall Sally.’ He used to say, ‘I can’t do it because it kills me throat,’ but then he would. He’d announce, ‘I’m doing this one for these two flossies over here,’ or something like that. Girls used to say his eyes were like mince pies. He had long eyelashes and would deliberately flutter them, and though you knew he was always aware of himself, he was so friendly to everybody that you couldn’t help but like him.’ 
—BERNADETTE FARRELL

One of the flutter numbers was ‘Over the Rainbow,’ guaranteed to go down a storm with the girls. The song from The Wizard of Oz seemed a strange choice, but the Beatles considered it valid because Gene Vincent did it. Paul sang it somewhere between the two versions, pausing impressively after the heightened ‘Somewhere’ and then sweetly rolling down. Cavern girls would get used to the sight: he made his eyes big, turned his face up and slightly at an angle and fixed his gaze above their heads on a brick at the far end of the center tunnel.

Sometimes John joined in with fine harmonies, but mostly he took the piss. Pete says that during one Cavern performance of ‘Over the Rainbow,’ John leaned back on the piano, pointed to Paul, burst into raucous laughter and shouted, ‘God, he’s doing Judy Garland!’ Paul had to keep singing in the knowledge that John was pulling crips and Quasis behind his back or making strange sounds on his guitar to interrupt him. Yet, if Paul stopped in the middle of the number, John would stare around the stage, the essence of innocence. There were always several simultaneous reasons why an audience couldn’t take their eyes off the Beatles.

Paul took such behavior from no one but John, but also he gave it back and was strong-minded enough to carry on doing what he wanted, knowing how much the audience liked it. He sang these songs well, and added one more to the portfolio at this time, the Broadway show number ‘Till There Was You,’ as covered in a new version by Peggy Lee—or Peggy Leg, as Paul called her. (He was given her record by his cousin Bett Robbins.) John really had a go at Paul for singing this—but didn’t try to stop him doing it, recognizing there was scope for all kinds of music in this group, to please all kinds of audiences … just so long as no one went near jazz” (614-15).

—//—

“LINDY NESS: ‘When Paul sang “Besame Mucho,” John used to stand behind him and make cripple faces. He had to: Paul was asking for it. But John wasn’t particular—he also took the piss out of George and Pete, mostly by imitations of some kind’” (761).

—//—

The tape throws great light on the Nerk Twins’ chemistry. While Paul is singing ‘A Taste of Honey,’ John suddenly shouts ‘SHUT UP TALKING!’ to someone in the audience, interrupting Paul much more than the chatterbox. Paul knows this, and is pitched into laughter. When he sings ‘Till There Was You,’ John—just a beat behind—speaks most of the lines in a persistent piss-taking echo: ‘No, I never heard them at all’ (‘No, he never heard them’). Paul chuckles and plows on; he can’t stop it, and he’s not even necessarily cross about it—he knows it’ll happen because this is John, and John is his fairground hero. It’s part of the double-act: the audience try to watch the singer but can’t tear their eyes off his mate, who’s probably also pulling crips. John couldn’t do this to anyone else without risking a thump, Paul wouldn’t accept it from anyone else; Paul gets to sing his song, John gets to undermine him. It’s just one facet of the complex sibling relationship they’ve always had, one among so many reasons they’re special together” (1178).

Leader Lennon: Quotes Lewisohn Chose

“Michael Hill, who like John came to Quarry Bank from Dovedale Road, says that though John and Pete were close, John was definitely the leader. ‘It was always “Lennon and Shotton,” never “Shotton and Lennon.” Pete wasn’t without talent of his own but he was an acolyte of John’s. We all were.’”

Page 96
Author interview, June 1, 2005 (footnote 47, p1199)


“Colin Hanton, the drummer…was 18, and joined through Eric Griffiths, but knew to whom he must answer. 

‘John didn’t say “I am the leader,” he just led, and we just followed him,’ he recalls. “There was never any discussion and it was never a problem. We just assumed John was the leader. He was the singer and whatever he wanted to sing we played.’”

Page 160-1
Interview by Spencer Leigh (footnote 42 on p1209)


“Pete Best watched the three lads who, with Ken, were looking around the cellar of his house. He noticed how the arty one, John, looked and acted the leader from the start,’ and how he alone decided where they would play ‘while Paul and George hovered in the background silently agreeing.’”

Page 341 
Beatle! (footnote 11 on p1240)


“Though John was indebted to Tony [Carricker] for broadening his musical horizons, Tony gained most from the friendship. 

‘I was an acolyte of John’s, it was an acolytish relationship, because he had the personality. He was very much a force of nature—he was frightened of far fewer things than most people, he had no social fears, wasn’t constrained by all the silly little things in life and had tremendous self-confidence and good fun. He was a very, very good mate.’

All the friendships in John’s life were like this: he was the leader, respected and gratefully followed by others. But perhaps for the first time here at college there was an exception: John found a friend he revered.

Page 258 
Carricker’s quote from: Author interview, 2004 (footnote 41 on p1227)


“Cyn observed how [Paul] ‘tried hard to impress John, posing and strutting with his hair slicked back to prove that he was cool, because John was very much the leader.’”

Page 350
John (footnote 26 on p1241)


“A Wirral newspaper reporter spoke to them on their opening night at Neston Institute on,Thursday, June 2—the Beatles’ first headlining and advertised performance anywhere—and the resulting article had it right: they were the Beatles with an ‘A.’ As for their individual names, though, the Scotland legacy was (mostly) lingering on: ‘John Lennon, the leader, plays one of the three rhythm guitars, the other guitarists being Paul Ramon and Carl Harrison. Stuart Da Stael [sic] plays the bass, and the drummer is Thomas Moore.’”

Page 479
Birkenhead News and Advertiser (Heswall & Neston edition),
June 11, 1960 (footnote 6 on p1259)


Pat Moran:

“‘John was the leader. He used to talk to Paul and then they’d play something, but Paul was also the leader in a way because he was very much part of it. Certainly it was between Paul and John as to who took the lead. Paul was my favorite. I can still picture him at the front with his guitar, left-handed. He was on the left side of the stage, then George alongside him, then John, and Stuart on the right.’”

Page 493-4
Author interview, July 17, 2006 (footnote 30 on page 1261)


“[W]riter, Derek Runciman, liked the Beatles and what they had to say, and it was here (in the November 1 issue [of Dance News]) that they were first quoted in a national publication. John was identified in print as ‘leader and founder of the group’ (which they’d agreed to say, if anyone asked) and this time, on his 22nd birthday, he did all the talking.”

Page 1078


“June Harris was another writer to scent originality.

‘The Beatles were new to London and hadn’t really acquired any sophistication or expertise yet, but they certainly struck me as having more substance, more purpose, than a lot of people I’d interviewed. George was very sweet and kind, a nice young man, Ringo didn’t say much, Paul was sensible and taking things in his stride, and John just got on with it, like “I know where I’m going and what I want to do with this group.” The others were deferential to him—he was the leader and had a sense of direction for all of them, and when he had something to say he said it, and why not? He wasn’t going to take shit from anyone.’”

Page 1128 
Author interview, April 6, 2004 (footnote 4 on page 1359)