Mark Lewisohn Interview Recs

Supplemental listening for Fine Tuning

Audio for most of these interviews can be found on Mark Lewisohn, a Beatles Historian, a beautifully maintained fan-made YouTube channel that has archived almost all of the interviews on this list. 

Interviews are linked directly to Apple podcasts, when possible. (YouTube links also included when applicable.)

Interview with Jean Louis-Polard, 2014
Topics of note: Neutrality and lack of bias

Fabcast podcast, 2017
013 MARK LEWISOHNย | (YouTube)
Topics of note: The 80s and Paul McCartneyโ€™s solo career

Humans in Love podcast, 2018
#1 (Part One) Beatles Authority Mark Lewisohnย 
Topics: Paulโ€™s reaction to Johnโ€™s murder

Fab4Cast podcast, 2019ย 
Talking to Mark Lewisohn:ย #1 Writing The Beatles’ Historyย andย #2 Spring 1969ย ย | (YouTube links:ย #1,ย #2)
Topics: Heroin; Allen Klein; the Liberty Bell; John and Yokoโ€™s wedding; Paul and Lindaโ€™s wedding

Nothing Is Real podcast, 2019
The Mark Lewisohn Interview #14 Part One and #15 Part Two 
Topics of note: Tensions with Apple

Interview with Giljs Groenteman2019
Topics: Unbridled enthusiasm for John

I Am the EggPod podcast, 2019
The Star-Club tapes ย | (YouTube)
Topics: Johnโ€™s leadership; intention to make all his research accessible after the books are published

From Me To You podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn In Conversation w/ Richard Courtneyย | (YouTube link)
Topics: Philip Norman; todayโ€™s โ€œanti-John stuffโ€ย 

Let It Roll podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn in Conversation w/Nate Wilcoxย | (YouTube)
Topics: The โ€œno greater buddyโ€ incident; Lewisohn defending Paul

Let It Be Beatles podcast, 2020
Mark Lewisohn – The Complete 2020 Let It Be Beatles Interview Podcastย | (YouTube)
Topics: The benzedrine incident; Johnโ€™s threesome with Royston Ellis; the 444 meeting and Geoff Emerick.

Fans on the Run podcast, 2022
Ep 73. Mark Lewisohn 
Topics: Working for Paul; tensions with Apple

Mocking Paul

Tune Inโ€™s take on Paulโ€™s โ€œUncoolโ€ Musical Tastes

NOTE: The purpose of this analysis is not to exaggerate the severity of Johnโ€™s onstage behavior which could have (at least occasionally) been conducted in good fun and camaraderie. The object is to determine whether or not Tune In is capable of presenting Johnโ€™s disruptive and/or undermining behavior objectively in a way that allowsย the readerย to judge the appropriateness of such behavior.

โ€“//โ€“

Multiple times throughout the book, Lewisohn writes with seeming approval about John undercutting Paulโ€™s โ€œsoftโ€ songs or musical tastes.

Here are five examples of this happening live, onstage:

On page 614, Lewisohn tells us howย โ€œPaul would flutter his eyelashes when he sang certain songs,โ€ย and calls โ€œSomewhere Over the Rainbowโ€ย โ€œone of [Paulโ€™s] flutter numbers, guaranteed to go down a storm with the girls.โ€

Tune In describes John teasing Paul onstage:ย โ€œJohn pointed to Paul, burst into raucous laughter and shouted, โ€˜God, heโ€™s doing Judy Garland!โ€™ Paul had to keep singing in the knowledge that John was pulling crips and Quasis behind his back or making strange sounds on his guitar to interrupt him.โ€

Of this, Lewisohn writes, โ€œThere were always several simultaneous reasons why an audience couldnโ€™t take their eyes off the Beatles.โ€

About โ€œBesame Mucho,โ€ we get a quote from Lindy Ness: โ€œWhen Paul sang โ€˜Besame Mucho,โ€™ John used to stand behind him and make cripple faces. He had to: Paul was asking for it.โ€ (p761).

During โ€œA Taste of Honey,โ€ John interrupts Paulโ€™s performance by yelling at the audience. Lewisohn calls this behavior an example of โ€œthe Nerk Twinsโ€™ chemistryโ€ (p1178).

When Paul sings โ€œTill There Was You,โ€ โ€œ[John] speaks most of the lines in a persistent piss-taking echo: โ€˜No, I never heard them at allโ€™ (โ€˜No, he never heard themโ€™)โ€ and Lewisohn writes, โ€œ[Paulโ€™s] not even necessarily cross about itโ€”he knows itโ€™ll happen because this is John, and John is his fairground hero.โ€ He also writes, โ€œItโ€™s part of the double-act, one among so many reasons they’re special togetherโ€ (p1178).

Also about โ€œTill There Was Youโ€: โ€œJohn really had a go at Paul for singing thisโ€”but didnโ€™t try to stop him doing it, recognizing there was scope for all kinds of music in this group, to please all kinds of audiencesโ€ (p615).

Does it sound like John is preoccupied with projecting a โ€œcoolโ€ image? We think so. Perhaps his undermining behavior garnered the praise and approval of a few (like Lindy Ness), but it could hardly be described as supportive of his partner (or reflective of good โ€œleadershipโ€).

And yet, Tune In always assures us that John is being awesome. Sometimes even a “hero.”

Instead of dispassionately framing Johnโ€™s behavior as immature or insecure upstaging, Lewisohn calls Johnโ€™s attention-seeking antics a part of John and Paulโ€™sย โ€œchemistry,โ€ย which isย โ€œspecialโ€ย and aย โ€œ[reason] why an audience couldnโ€™t take their eyes o๏ฌ€ the Beatles.โ€

And, of course, we hear once again that John is Paulโ€™s โ€œfairground hero.โ€

Somehow, by mocking Paul doing his โ€œflutter numbersโ€ John is โ€œrecognizing thereโ€™s scope for all kinds of music.โ€

Note that, according to Tune In,ย Paul himselfย isnโ€™t recognizing scope by choosing and singing the songs (even in the face of mockery);ย Johnย is recognizing scope byย allowing himย to do it (while simultaneously making fun of him for it).

Our final example is one where John doesnโ€™t even allow Paul to finish his performance, and Tune In uses this to pay John the biggest compliment yet.

Regarding the Beatlesโ€™ live performance of Elvisโ€™s hit single โ€œAre You Lonesome Tonightโ€, only days after its release:

โ€œPaul set down his guitar, clasped the microphone and did his Elvis act, the great solo star crooning his new slow one. It was already going to pot when he went into the long spoken-word middle section about โ€˜all the worldโ€™s a stage,โ€™ which heโ€™d crammed into his brain inside a few hours โ€ฆ and then John just stopped the group dead.

Refusing to be involved in anything so corny, John completely took the piss out of Paul, ripping his close mate and bandmate to shreds in front of everyone. โ€˜They sent me up rotten,โ€™ Paul says, โ€˜especially John. They all but laughed me off the stage.โ€™โ€

So from this description and Paulโ€™s quote, we can surmise that the Beatles had rehearsed and prepared the number, โ€œspoken-word middle sectionโ€ and all. Why then, did John not object to the corny, spoken-word interlude during rehearsal? Assuming Johnโ€™s mid-performance “piss-take” was not a comedy routine pre-planned by all the Beatles, this anecdote suggests that John knowingly set Paul up for public ridicule and relished the opportunity to pull the rug out from under him onstage.

To be clear, this would be a perfectly fine choice if Paul was in on the joke and consented to the bit. But deliberately setting Paul up to fail is unambiguously un-cool.

Nevertheless, hereโ€™s how Tune In justifies Johnโ€™s behavior:

โ€œThis was the way John dealt with things, and he also knew the Beatles must have a solid front line, not back a soloist. As he said, โ€˜Every group had a lead singer in a pink jacket singing Cli๏ฌ€ Richard-type songs. We were the only group that didnโ€™t โ€ฆ and that was how we broke through, by being differentโ€™โ€ย (586).

Thereโ€™s no reason to connect Johnโ€™s quote about โ€œbeing differentโ€ to this anecdote (the footnote indicates his quote is taken from a December 1969 interview called โ€œPop Goes the Bulldogโ€) except to spin Johnโ€™s behavior in the noblest way possible.

Paul wasnโ€™t trying to beย โ€œa lead singer in a pink jacketโ€โ€”he was merely taking the lead vocal just as John and George did in their turn. Did John also stop the band dead in the middle of his own solo spots, in order to ensure they kept aย โ€œsolid front lineโ€ย that would allow them toย โ€œ[break] through by being differentโ€?ย Of course not. John is simply covering his embarrassment here, insecure about perceived softness, and seeking negative attention.

(For readers who may think we’re overblowing this topic, imagine for a moment if Paul was doing this to George Harrison onstage. Would Paulโ€™s behavior be praised?)

Itโ€™s outrageous for Lewisohn to spin John’s every behavior into something awesome (โ€œaudiences couldnโ€™t take their eyes offโ€; โ€œfairground heroโ€), visionary (โ€œwe broke through by being differentโ€), egalitarian (โ€œsolid front lineโ€) broad-minded (โ€œrecognizing there was scope for all kinds of musicโ€), and indicative of a GOOD PARTNER, actually (โ€œpart of the double-actโ€โ€œNerk Twinsโ€™ chemistryโ€โ€œspecial togetherโ€).

Meanwhile, Paul is โ€œasking for itโ€ by doing โ€œflutter numbersโ€ โ€œguaranteed to go down a storm with the girls,โ€ โ€œmaking his eyes big,โ€ being โ€œso corny,โ€ and trying to be โ€œthe great solo star,โ€ like a Cliff Richard knockoff โ€œin a pink jacket.โ€

Does this portrayal look even-handed?

โ€”//โ€”

FULL EXCERPTS:

โ€œ[โ€˜Are You Lonesome Tonightโ€™] came out in Britain on Friday, January 13, and they did it the next night at Aintree Institute. Paul set down his guitar, clasped the microphone and did his Elvis act, the great solo star crooning his new slow one. It was already going to pot when he went into the long spoken-word middle section about โ€˜all the worldโ€™s a stage,โ€™ which heโ€™d crammed into his brain inside a few hours โ€ฆ and then John just stopped the group dead.

Refusing to be involved in anything so corny, he completely took the piss out of Paul, ripping his close mate and bandmate to shreds in front of everyone. โ€˜They sent me up rotten,โ€™ Paul says, โ€˜especially John. They all but laughed me off the stage.โ€™ This was the way John dealt with things, and he also knew the Beatles must have a solid front line, not back a soloist. As he said, โ€˜Every group had a lead singer in a pink jacket singing Cliff Richard-type songs. We were the only group that didnโ€™t โ€ฆ and that was how we broke through, by being differentโ€™โ€ (586).

โ€”//โ€”

โ€œWe always requested Paul to sing โ€˜Long Tall Sally.โ€™ He used to say, โ€˜I canโ€™t do it because it kills me throat,โ€™ but then he would. Heโ€™d announce, โ€˜Iโ€™m doing this one for these two ๏ฌ‚ossies over here,โ€™ or something like that. Girls used to say his eyes were like mince pies. He had long eyelashes and would deliberately ๏ฌ‚utter them, and though you knew he was always aware of himself, he was so friendly to everybody that you couldnโ€™t help but like him.โ€™ 
โ€”BERNADETTE FARRELL

One of the ๏ฌ‚utter numbers was โ€˜Over the Rainbow,โ€™ guaranteed to go down a storm with the girls. The song from The Wizard of Oz seemed a strange choice, but the Beatles considered it valid because Gene Vincent did it. Paul sang it somewhere between the two versions, pausing impressively after the heightened โ€˜Somewhereโ€™ and then sweetly rolling down. Cavern girls would get used to the sight: he made his eyes big, turned his face up and slightly at an angle and ๏ฌxed his gaze above their heads on a brick at the far end of the center tunnel.

Sometimes John joined in with ๏ฌne harmonies, but mostly he took the piss. Pete says that during one Cavern performance of โ€˜Over the Rainbow,โ€™ John leaned back on the piano, pointed to Paul, burst into raucous laughter and shouted, โ€˜God, heโ€™s doing Judy Garland!โ€™ Paul had to keep singing in the knowledge that John was pulling crips and Quasis behind his back or making strange sounds on his guitar to interrupt him. Yet, if Paul stopped in the middle of the number, John would stare around the stage, the essence of innocence. There were always several simultaneous reasons why an audience couldnโ€™t take their eyes o๏ฌ€ the Beatles.

Paul took such behavior from no one but John, but also he gave it back and was strong-minded enough to carry on doing what he wanted, knowing how much the audience liked it. He sang these songs well, and added one more to the portfolio at this time, the Broadway show number โ€˜Till There Was You,โ€™ as covered in a new version by Peggy Leeโ€”or Peggy Leg, as Paul called her. (He was given her record by his cousin Bett Robbins.) John really had a go at Paul for singing thisโ€”but didnโ€™t try to stop him doing it, recognizing there was scope for all kinds of music in this group, to please all kinds of audiences โ€ฆ just so long as no one went near jazzโ€ (614-15).

โ€”//โ€”

โ€œLINDY NESS: โ€˜When Paul sang โ€œBesame Mucho,โ€ John used to stand behind him and make cripple faces. He had to: Paul was asking for it. But John wasnโ€™t particularโ€”he also took the piss out of George and Pete, mostly by imitations of some kindโ€™โ€ (761).

โ€”//โ€”

The tape throws great light on the Nerk Twinsโ€™ chemistry. While Paul is singing โ€˜A Taste of Honey,โ€™ John suddenly shouts โ€˜SHUT UP TALKING!โ€™ to someone in the audience, interrupting Paul much more than the chatterbox. Paul knows this, and is pitched into laughter. When he sings โ€˜Till There Was You,โ€™ Johnโ€”just a beat behindโ€”speaks most of the lines in a persistent piss-taking echo: โ€˜No, I never heard them at allโ€™ (โ€˜No, he never heard themโ€™). Paul chuckles and plows on; he canโ€™t stop it, and heโ€™s not even necessarily cross about itโ€”he knows itโ€™ll happen because this is John, and John is his fairground hero. Itโ€™s part of the double-act: the audience try to watch the singer but canโ€™t tear their eyes o๏ฌ€ his mate, whoโ€™s probably also pulling crips. John couldnโ€™t do this to anyone else without risking a thump, Paul wouldnโ€™t accept it from anyone else; Paul gets to sing his song, John gets to undermine him. Itโ€™s just one facet of the complex sibling relationship theyโ€™ve always had, one among so many reasons theyโ€™re special togetherโ€ (1178).

Leader Lennon: Quotes Lewisohn Chose

โ€œMichael Hill, who like John came to Quarry Bank from Dovedale Road, says that though John and Pete were close, John was definitely the leader. โ€˜It was always โ€œLennon and Shotton,โ€ never โ€œShotton and Lennon.โ€ Pete wasnโ€™t without talent of his own but he was an acolyte of Johnโ€™s. We all were.โ€™โ€

Page 96
Author interview, June 1, 2005 (footnote 47, p1199)


โ€œColin Hanton, the drummerโ€ฆwas 18, and joined through Eric Gri๏ฌƒths, but knew to whom he must answer. 

โ€˜John didnโ€™t say โ€œI am the leader,โ€ he just led, and we just followed him,โ€™ he recalls. โ€œThere was never any discussion and it was never a problem. We just assumed John was the leader. He was the singer and whatever he wanted to sing we played.โ€™โ€

Page 160-1
Interview by Spencer Leigh (footnote 42 on p1209)


โ€œPete Best watched the three lads who, with Ken, were looking around the cellar of his house. He noticed how the arty one, John, โ€˜looked and acted the leader from the start,โ€™ and how he alone decided where they would play โ€˜while Paul and George hovered in the background silently agreeing.โ€™โ€

Page 341 
Beatle! (footnote 11 on p1240)


โ€œThough John was indebted to Tony [Carricker] for broadening his musical horizons, Tony gained most from the friendship. 

โ€˜I was an acolyte of Johnโ€™s, it was an acolytish relationship, because he had the personality. He was very much a force of natureโ€”he was frightened of far fewer things than most people, he had no social fears, wasnโ€™t constrained by all the silly little things in life and had tremendous self-con๏ฌdence and good fun. He was a very, very good mate.โ€™

All the friendships in Johnโ€™s life were like this: he was the leader, respected and gratefully followed by others. But perhaps for the ๏ฌrst time here at college there was an exception: John found a friend he revered.โ€

Page 258 
Carrickerโ€™s quote from: Author interview, 2004 (footnote 41 on p1227)


โ€œCyn observed how [Paul] โ€˜tried hard to impress John, posing and strutting with his hair slicked back to prove that he was cool, because John was very much the leader.โ€™โ€

Page 350
John (footnote 26 on p1241)


โ€œA Wirral newspaper reporter spoke to them on their opening night at Neston Institute on,Thursday, June 2โ€”the Beatlesโ€™ ๏ฌrst headlining and advertised performance anywhereโ€”and the resulting article had it right: they were the Beatles with an โ€˜A.โ€™ As for their individual names, though, the Scotland legacy was (mostly) lingering on: โ€˜John Lennon, the leader, plays one of the three rhythm guitars, the other guitarists being Paul Ramon and Carl Harrison. Stuart Da Stael [sic] plays the bass, and the drummer is Thomas Moore.โ€™โ€

Page 479
Birkenhead News and Advertiser (Heswall & Neston edition),
June 11, 1960 (footnote 6 on p1259)


Pat Moran:

โ€œโ€˜John was the leader. He used to talk to Paul and then theyโ€™d play something, but Paul was also the leader in a way because he was very much part of it. Certainly it was between Paul and John as to who took the lead. Paul was my favorite. I can still picture him at the front with his guitar, left-handed. He was on the left side of the stage, then George alongside him, then John, and Stuart on the right.โ€™โ€

Page 493-4
Author interview, July 17, 2006 (footnote 30 on page 1261)


โ€œ[W]riter, Derek Runciman, liked the Beatles and what they had to say, and it was here (in the November 1 issue [of Dance News]) that they were ๏ฌrst quoted in a national publication. John was identi๏ฌed in print as โ€˜leader and founder of the groupโ€™ (which theyโ€™d agreed to say, if anyone asked) and this time, on his 22nd birthday, he did all the talking.โ€

Page 1078


โ€œJune Harris was another writer to scent originality.

โ€˜The Beatles were new to London and hadnโ€™t really acquired any sophistication or expertise yet, but they certainly struck me as having more substance, more purpose, than a lot of people Iโ€™d interviewed. George was very sweet and kind, a nice young man, Ringo didnโ€™t say much, Paul was sensible and taking things in his stride, and John just got on with it, like โ€œI know where Iโ€™m going and what I want to do with this group.โ€ The others were deferential to himโ€”he was the leader and had a sense of direction for all of them, and when he had something to say he said it, and why not? He wasnโ€™t going to take shit from anyone.โ€™โ€

Page 1128 
Author interview, April 6, 2004 (footnote 4 on page 1359)